And then someone has to count. Well, it depends on who you ask. JAD: So this Wood Wide Web, is this just, like, the roots? We went and looked for ourselves. LARRY UBELL: I'm not giving my age. JENNIFER FRAZER: They're some other kind of category. Or maybe it's the fungus under the ground is kind of like a broker and decides who gets what. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, tested it in my lab. Well, I have one thing just out of curiosity As we were winding up with our home inspectors, Alvin and Larry Ubell, we thought maybe we should run this metaphor idea by them. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, I know. And then all of a sudden, she says she looks down into the ground and she notices all around them where the soil has been cleared away there are roots upon roots upon roots in this thick, crazy tangle. JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. She's working in the timber industry at the time. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just going to run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? They play with sound and story in a way that's incredibly intriguing, I was instantly hooked with More Perfect. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. I thought -- I thought tree roots just sort of did -- like, I thought -- I always imagined tree roots were kind of like straws. Well, I created these horrible contraptions. Support Radiolab today at Radiolab.org/donate. Or maybe slower? It should have some. It's 10 o'clock and I have to go. So its resources, its legacy will move into the mycorrhizal network into neighboring trees. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. And then someone has to count. Suzanne says she's not sure if the tree is running the show and saying like, you know, "Give it to the new guy." So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. So we're really -- like this is -- we're really at the very beginning of this. They learned something. You just used a very interesting word. Fan first, light after. In this case, a little blue LED light. LARRY UBELL: You got somewhere to go? Which by the way, is definitely not a plant. And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. I'm just trying to make sure I understand, because I realize that none of these conversations are actually spoken. ROBERT: Like, would they figure it out faster this time? And is it as dramatic in the opposite direction? JENNIFER FRAZER: With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. Her use of metaphor. MONICA GAGLIANO: Or would just be going random? And I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. ROBERT: Science writer Jen Frazer gave us kind of the standard story. And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. ROBERT: And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. ROBERT: So the deer's like, "Oh, well. This is the headphones? So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? Nothing happened at all. ROBERT: What's its job? ROBERT: This happens to a lot of people. ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. ROBERT: Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? So it wasn't touching the dirt at all. I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. Wait. And she says this time they relaxed almost immediately. Picture one of those parachute drops that they have at the -- at state fairs or amusement parks where you're hoisted up to the top. ], Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Andy Mills, Latif Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell. To remember? Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? Me first. A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. This way there is often more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun as well. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. What a fungus does is it -- it hunts, it mines, it fishes, and it strangles. So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? I don't know where you were that day. Radiolab Smarty Plants. And they still remembered. Never mind.". I found a little water! I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. Fan, light, lean. ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. So the -- this branching pot thing. Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. So she's saying they remembered for almost a month? Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. ROBERT: What do you mean? MONICA GAGLIANO: Pretty much like the concept of Pavlov with his dog applied. I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans We are a little obsessed with the brain. ROBERT: Oh! Jad and Robert, theyare split on this one. JENNIFER FRAZER: An anti-predator reaction? Enough of that! And she wondered whether that was true. ROBERT: Give it to the new -- well, that's what she saying. His name is Roy Halling. Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? I mean, Jigs was part of the family. It just kept curling and curling. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori say that the plants can't do something. He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in SUZANNE SIMARD: And toilet paper. ROBERT: He gives us a magnifying glass. What is the tree giving back to the fungus? Did Jigs emerge? So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. ROBERT: They would salivate and then eat the meat. Can you make your own food? Or it's just the vibration of the pipe that's making it go toward it. ROBERT: So I think what she would argue is that we kind of proved her point. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. Or even learn? Now the plants if they were truly dumb they'd go 50/50. With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, wedig into the work of evolutionaryecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns ourbrain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. ROBERT: And this? Pics! The fungus has this incredible network of tubes that it's able to send out through the soil, and draw up water and mineral nutrients that the tree needs. Very similar to the sorts of vitamins and minerals that humans need. Can Robert get Jad tojoin the march? The fact that humans do it in a particular way, it doesn't mean that everyone needs to do it in that way to be able to do it in the first place. ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. MONICA GAGLIANO: So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. Same as the Pavlov. Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. I think there is something like a nervous system in the forest, because it's the same sort of large network of nodes sending signals to one another. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. Oh, yeah. So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was A little fan. But when we look at the below ground structure, it looks so much like a brain physically, and now that we're starting to understand how it works, we're going, wow, there's so many parallels. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: My name is Jennifer Frazer. It's condensation. And so of course, that was only the beginning. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. They need light to grow. I'm not making this up. Every time. I was like, "Oh, my God! If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? "I'm under attack!". ROBERT: When you go into a forest, you see a tree, a tall tree. This -- this actually happened to me. ROBERT: There's -- on the science side, there's a real suspicion of anything that's anthropomorphizing a plant. So I don't have a problem. And a little wind. How much longer? So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? I'm 84. In my brain. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. And then Monica would Just about, you know, seven or eight inches. That's okay. JAD: What -- I forgot to ask you something important. ROBERT: So you just did what Pavlov did to a plant. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. Fan, light, lean. ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. So these trees were basically covered with bags that were then filled with radioactive gas. ROBERT: We, as you know, built your elevator. No. It was like -- it was like a huge network. But Monica says what she does do is move around the world with a general feeling of What if? Radiolab - Smarty Plants. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori says that the plants can't do something. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? And it's more expensive. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. JAD: From just bears throwing fish on the ground? Absolutely not. Because if I let you go it's gonna be another 20 minutes until I get to talk. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. MONICA GAGLIANO: Would the plant do the same? MONICA GAGLIANO: So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. But it didn't happen. JAD: But still. Like so -- and I think that, you know, the whole forest then, there's an intelligence there that's beyond just the species. That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. JENNIFER FRAZER: The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. SUZANNE SIMARD: It's just this incredible communications network that, you know, people had no idea about in the past, because we couldn't -- didn't know how to look. Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. ", ROBERT: So the deer's like, "Oh, well. Does it threaten your sense of humanity that you depend for pretty much every single calorie you eat on a plant? So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. Enough of that! So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. Just for example. I mean, it's a kind of romanticism, I think. Read about Smarty Plants by Radiolab and see the artwork, lyrics and similar artists. So this Wood Wide Web, is this just, like, the roots? ROBERT: So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. So we know that Douglas fir will take -- a dying Douglas fir will send carbon to a neighboring Ponderosa pine. ROBERT: Ring, meat, eat. These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of ROBERT: And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. And Basically expanding it from a kind of a column of a pit to something that's -- we could actually grab onto his front legs and pull him out. JAD: That apparently -- jury's still out. Jigs had provided this incredible window for me, you know, in this digging escapade to see how many different colors they were, how many different shapes there were, that they were so intertwined. Nothing delicious at all.". Radiolab - Smarty Plants . That is definitely cool. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. AATISH BHATIA: This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? [laughs]. That's amazing and fantastic. ROY HALLING: It's just getting started. Earn PetSmart Treats loyalty points with every purchase and get members-only discounts. This is Roy Halling, researcher specializing in fungi at the New York Botanical Garden. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? Hey, it's okay. Yes, we don't normally ascribe intelligence to plants, and plants are not thought to have brains. And if you go to too many rock concerts, you can break these hairs and that leads to permanent hearing loss, which is bad. My reaction was, "Oh ****!" So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. So -- so carbon will move from that dying tree. LARRY UBELL: I'm not giving my age. Me first. And ROBERT: Since he was so deep down in there. Smarty Plants--My Latest Guest Spot for Radiolab - Scientific American Blog Network COVID Health Mind & Brain Environment Technology Space & Physics Video Podcasts Opinion Store Knowledge within. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. But let me just -- let me give it a try. So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. Can the tree feel you ripping the roots out like that? And what she discovered is that all these trees, all these trees that were of totally different species were sharing their food underground. ROBERT: So there seemed to be, under the ground, this fungal freeway system connecting one tree to the next to the next to the next. SUZANNE SIMARD: And those chemicals will then move through the network and warn neighboring trees or seedlings. They don't do well in warm temperatures and their needles turn all sickly yellow. I can scream my head off if I want to. So we went back to Monica. ROBERT: Ring, meat, eat. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. ALVIN UBELL: If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. ROBERT: There's -- they have found salmon in tree rings. The tree has a lot of sugar. JAD: No, it's because it's like every time I close my eyes, you're coming at it from a different direction. But we don't know. Sugar. Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. ROY HALLING: So there's an oak tree right there. This peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. MONICA GAGLIANO: Light is obviously representing dinner. They have to -- have to edit in this together. But they do have root hairs. -- they spring way up high in the air. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso! ANNIE: But I wonder if her using these metaphors ANNIE: is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. ROBERT: And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. Radiolab: Smarty Plants. ROBERT: Suzanne says she's not sure if the tree is running the show and saying like, you know, "Give it to the new guy." Five, four, three, two, one, drop! When I was a little kid, I would be in the forest and I'd just eat the forest floor. I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. Testing one, two. Well, some of them can first of all, and big deal. If you have this kind of license, then you are only allowed to grow up to that certain height; if . You mean you got down on all fours and just And so my mom always talks about how she had to constantly be giving me worm medicine because I was -- I always had worms. Good. ROBERT: How do you mean? That's what she says. ROBERT: And we dropped it once, and twice. The little threads just wrapping themselves around the tree roots. Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? ROBERT: This final thought. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. So they figured out who paid for the murder. LARRY UBELL: Yes, we are related. ], Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bressler, Rachael Cusick ], Bethel Habte, Tracie Hunte, Matt Kielty ], Matt Kielly. But let me just -- let me give it a try. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world. ROBERT: When we last left off, I'm just saying you just said intelligence. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. JENNIFER FRAZER: I do find it magical. Verified account Protected Tweets @ Protected Tweets @ It's soaks in sunshine, and it takes CO2, carbon dioxide, and it's splits it in half. Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? What is it? MONICA GAGLIANO: Well, I created these horrible contraptions. What turns out to be a weeping willow little plant-sized box like it! Need a brain what is the tree feel you ripping the roots: would. Into neighboring trees stimuli, she then shook them left to right and they instantly up., see something that no one else would see have to -- have to edit this. To sense the world with a general feeling of what if little back. 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